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Hobby Breeder vs. Backyard Breeder vs. Professional Breeder…?
By admin | May 21, 2008
Shadow's Melon asked:
I noticed that a poster here thought that anyone who bred dogs only occasionally thought that everyone here on YA considered them to be a backyard breeder.
So now I'm curious... If a breeder is small time, not having a proper "kennel" set up, only has a few dogs, breeds occasionally and selectively chooses proper sire and dam, does all the genetic testing to their breed, shows in a variety of venues, including confirmation and what ever that breed was originally bred to do, would you consider this a backyard breeder? Does the fact this breeder does not run a large scale, professional kennel lead you to assume that breeder is a backyard breeder?
Do you think that small hobby breeders, who often have "real" jobs and who do all that a reputable breeder should do, but often on a much smaller scale, are still backyard breeders?
I was just wondering what most people here in the dog section thought of this.
McRedneck, I am NOT a breeder, thank you very much!
Um, and those good, small, hobby breeders are looking to IMPROVE their breed. Sorry, I'm all for rescues and such, but that really is NOT for everyone. If I want a Border Collie that is going to be able to work the herd properly, I will have much better chances by going to a reputable breeder to acquire that dog. That is my choice.
By the way, my use of the term "professional" was to merely distinguish from "hobby" and didn't want to use "reputable" as I felt it might make a "hobby" breeder seem disreputable, which I did not wish to do.
teener and Tom, both of those are excellent links! Thank you!
So I'm getting the impression here that most people see the term "backyard breeder" as kind of a slang for BAD breeder, yes? That's kind of how I always thought of it.
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May 22nd, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Here’s an excellent chart on breeder characteristics:
http://esspuppyhelp.com/esspuppyhelp/Breeder%20Characteristics.htm
May 24th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Clearly, no. BYB should really only apply to people who breed two dogs with no knowledge or interest in bettering the breed; “just because” or to make money.
Anyone who claims to be a “professional” breeder worries me a bit, honestly (see my article on puppy mills below).
The HSUS has done a wonderful job of defining what a responsible or ethical breeder looks like (see link).
May 26th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
IMHO, the “legal age” for the dog forum should be raised to 18. Sometimes the stupidity here is overwhelming and it could be bad for the dogs.
And absolutely NOTHING against hobby breeders that do it for the love of dogs and usually lose a bundle on each litter.
May 27th, 2008 at 6:44 am
I’m not sure why people would breed their dogs intentionally. It’s not FUN for the dogs, and you probably don’t make enough money if you’re doing it part time.
Take a look at Petfinder and see all the dogs who are ‘on the chopping block’ right now. They could be euthenized because we’re so overpopulated, yet you intentionally breed yours. It doesn’t make sense.
You have a very bad ‘hobby’ if you ask me, but to properly answer your question I’d say you’re a backyard breeder.
May 28th, 2008 at 6:42 am
The breeder you described (meaning hobby breeder) is actually one of the best types. They’re nore concerned with a few really good litters a year than a whole bunch of dogs they can sell. There is a huge difference between a “backyard breeder” who lets their pretty golden breed with anyone that will volunteer a male, and a breed enthusiast that takes careful planning with each litter. Unfortunately the phrase backyard breeder isn’t very well defined. I would put more of a negative conotation on that.
May 28th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
what you describe is in my opinion the only REAL breeder, a small scale breeder with only a few females and mabe a male or 2, that breeds only occasionally after lots of reaserch into the lines they are working with, someone who takes the time to handle and show the dog not only in confirmation but in other things to prove their dog is worthy, THOSE are the real breeders.
a byb is someone who has a pet whos not fixed and they breed her to her neightbors pet of the same breed (or not) because “she deserves to have puppies” or “they’ll be cute”
A profesional breeder is much the same only on a larger scale and mitivated by money, this includes puppymills…
personally i would NEVER buy a dog from any kind of kennel situation, i want a dog that has proven itself a family companion first, not a puppy from a mother whos spent her life in a kennel, no matter how nice that kennel is.
I feel good breeders understand that part of their breeding program includes having a few dogs so they can spend lots of time with each dog IN THE HOME! as well as doing all the right things.
May 29th, 2008 at 3:26 am
a breeder is either reputable or not reputable.. doesnt matter how many litters you have.. what matters is if you are showing/working your dogs and earning titles on them, doing all the genetic health testing, and breeding for temperment, and health.
It doesnt matter if you have one litter every 5 years, or have 5 litters a month.. either you are reputable or you are not.
May 31st, 2008 at 8:43 am
RE: “So now I’m curious… If a breeder is small time, not having a proper “kennel” set up, only has a few dogs, breeds occasionally and selectively chooses proper sire and dam, does all the genetic testing to their breed, shows in a variety of venues, including confirmation and what ever that breed was originally bred to do, would you consider this a backyard breeder?”
> No, I would not consider them a backyard breeder. I would consider them a reputable breeder.
RE: “Does the fact this breeder does not run a large scale, professional kennel lead you to assume that breeder is a backyard breeder?”
> I would rather buy from a breeder that keeps their dogs as part of the family. I would be very hesitant to buy from “large scale breeders”, especially with “show-mills” popping up in addition to the regular “puppy-mills”.
> The term “professional breeder” has negative connotations for me. The first thing I think of is: “Someone breeding dogs only for money.”
RE: “Do you think that small hobby breeders, who often have “real” jobs and who do all that a reputable breeder should do, but often on a much smaller scale, are still backyard breeders?”
> No. Most reputable breeders are what you describe here. Breeding dogs is quite expensive, it’s not uncommon to lose money on a litter if you are doing everything correctly. And even if you manage to get above the break-even point, it’s a minimal amount of money. Not enough to live on.
> I consider “backyard breeders” to be the people that breed their dogs because the dogs are cute, or they want their kids to see the ‘miracle of life’, or they want to make extra money on the side, etc.. They are also not doing it properly; no health testing, no showing in confirmation, etc..
June 2nd, 2008 at 5:23 am
I have noticed that MANY people on y/a are totally against breeding and leaving their dogs intact. Most are young and have no idea about breeding. I believe that mass scale professional breeders with kennels and all are turning a miracle of life into a dirty business, where quantity replaces quality. Should you adopt a baby from someone who must give her up, or should you purchase a baby from a large scale baby factory just because it is “professional?” I think if someone has nice, suitable dogs free of defect and they breed them, then take all proper steps to ensure dogs have suitable homes, and do it with the spirit of bettering the breed rather than making a buck, they are doing fine. The moment it becomes a business, you are putting money ahead of the dogs. Backyard breeder is a misleading, dispicable term. I think what they mean to (or should mean to) refer to, is the local thug who gets it in his head to get a b itch and sire and breed them without taking any proper steps for the sole purpose of making money, not caring what happens to the pups or to the b itch (and breeds her practically every heat cycle). This person is NOT a breeder, he is a creep. Your small time breeder, whelping the pups in his bed room, is fine as long as he CARES about what happens to the puppies and proves it by fulfilling the required steps of legal contracts, vaccines, etc… Puppies should NEVER be a business. These are LIVING CREATURES! Also- Dog Shows are not the only venue for testing a dog’s worth or suitability to breeding. Being pretty is only ONE consideration. Temperment, athletic ability, and proficiency at her job are the BEST ways to choose what dog to breed. Also, you chose what you want in a dog, not a judge. Everyone has his own taste! Just make sure they are healthy and cared for, and an asset to their breed!
June 3rd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
I am very ignorant when it comes to breeding issues with dogs…
I honestly thought that almost all reputable breeders (run the genetics tests, show, breed to better the breed, etc.) were usually small time. My parents have always picked their Danes from a family that fits that description, so that’s really the only experience I’ve had with breeders. This is what I would call Professional or Hobby Breeders.
I thought back yard breeders were the ones that just kind of let whatever happens, happen with their dogs. Or that they intentionally got their dog pregnant so they could help pay the rent.
My idea of puppy mills were someone with a huge back yard with tons of cages stacked on top of each other. The dogs are bred endlessly and not cared for at all.
That’s just what I invision. I know I could be wrong, or there could be variations.
June 5th, 2008 at 5:12 am
I would be described as a BYB by many on YA - I have 1 B*tch, who I have bred one litter from - with another planned in 2 years.
She is a beautiful example of her breed, both in terms of conformation and personality. The pup’s sire was chosen carefully to compliment her and strengthen the tri-colour gene.
She was pampered throughout her pregnancy, and I am an experienced animal midwife so was able to help her with the delivery (in the middle of my bed LOL).
The pups were raised in first my bedroom (yes - in a whelping box), then in the kitchen. they were handled from birth, introduced to a large number of different people, including children of all ages, were acclimatised to household noises and events, cuddled, talked to and loved.
Potential owners were carefully vetted and required to visit the pups twice a week while they were still with Mum to make sure that they were all used to each other.
Each owner had to sign a contract agreeing that, if they ever want to get rid of the dog, then they have to bring it to me and I will buy it back.
June 6th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
“Hobby Breeders” are not the same as Backyard Breeders. Backyard breeders are breeding because they want to have puppies so their children can “see the miracle of life” or because they think their dog is the best and why wouldn’t everyone else want a dog just like them? or because they think they’ll get the money the spent to buy the dog back by breeding it.
Hobby breeders who have few dogs, only an occasional litter, are extremely thorough in researching their bloodlines and choosing mating pairs, and take the time to put titles on their dog in both confirmation and performance events are the ones that are truly bettering their breed. They not only know their own dogs, but they are almost always extremely picky about what kind of a home their puppies go to. Unlike a BYB, who is done with the pups once they are weaned and sold to a new home, hobby breeders keep up with the dogs they breed and will take them back in a heartbeat if the new home doesn’t work out for ANY reason.
“Professional” breeders who breed dogs on a large scale make me nervous, even if they do all the health clearances and put titles on their dogs. If you are having more than one or two litters a year, chances are you more than likely don’t have the time to do early socialization with each dog or get to know your breeding dogs on a very personal level.
June 7th, 2008 at 12:21 am
I am actually more suspicious of those who breed large scale and have kennels with more then three breeds and those that breed to supply a demand rather then breeding for the love of the animal and creating healthier dogs.
“does all the genetic testing to their breed”
That is the no.1 important thing for me if I ever choose a breeder, so many purebred (and apparant purebred dogs from mills) have many genetic problems that not testing *all* the problems that breed may have is irrisponsible to me and is automatically a back yard breeder, no matter how loved and cared for the puppies are, or the best food and vet care, without making sure the genetic history of the dogs’ families (health & temperment) and genetic testing then the puppies could have genetic disease and poor temperments. If the dog has a genetic disease or poor hip score it should not be bred from as it can easily be carried to the young.
But anyone could get two dogs and breed them without any testing (I know I’ve been there and realised the mistake too late - although it was my nan’s dog and I was only 10 I still feel guilty about it)
The other thing I’m against with breeders is breeding purebreds that have poor health but is supposed to be bred like that! Like English & french bulldogs, any dog with a squashed face, daschounds, bassett hound ect. Although I love daxies and have had a gorgous lhasa apso with the sweetest temperment - but because I don’t beleive in breeding these poor things I’d happily rescue - but this is another thing alltogether!
I do believe in breeders as long as it is done right and the dogs in question has their health (and the health of the next generations) put first and ribbons put last.
I was told of the perfect breeder by a man whom bought a king charles from him, the breeder said “you have both the puppy and me for life now.” he has gone over everything about the puppy, his history, the family health and temperment, and will keep in contact all through the puppy’s life and all his dogs live inside and the pups raised indoors. I’m sure if the pups he bred all suffered from a serious illness he’d have no problem with stopping that line because he puts his dogs first.
June 7th, 2008 at 11:45 am
To me, it doesn’t really matter if someone has 2 kennel runs or a $100,000 set up. What matters is WHY they are breeding to start with. And how they go about it. Health testing, showing, etc…
Anyone that breeds for any reason other than to better the breed and their own program, is irresponsible. I know people that call themselves “reputable” just because they show….
Hobby breeders are what *I* refer to as “reputable”, as do a lot of people that show. They aren’t in it for money….and most have jobs or spouses that do…they may have the whelping box in their bedroom, but that doesn’t make them “bad”…
I know what I’m trying to say, but for once, having a hard time saying it! LOL
I know someone will come along and give a better answer than me
June 10th, 2008 at 11:17 am
This matrix shows the differences about as good as anything.
http://www.shilohshepherds.com/puppyBreeders/breederMatrixv4.htm
I’m with nekkiddo… a person either does their best to do things properly or they don’t
June 11th, 2008 at 11:55 am
I personally feel that “Backyard Breeder” is a misnomer. It covers too broad a spectrum, without any specific criteria to define the term.
What you have described above IS what I would qualify as a “Reputable Breeder”. An often times small operation that places all the emphasis on breeding top quality dogs without regard to profit or loss. (lol) They put in the time, effort, research, and personal finances back into their dogs. They choose some form of criteria to “evaluate” their dogs; ususally conformation showing, obedience competition, field and trial, etc.
Most important, they have a “goal” in mind of bettering their breed and they strive to reach that goal with EVERY litter they breed. They also stand behind what they breed for the dog’s lifetime; ethically and financially.
To answer your question, IMHO, there are only two types of breeders. Reputable and Not Reputable. The size and location of the “operation” are irrelevant. You either do right by your dogs or you don’t.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
A breeder that is responsible to their breed doesn’t have to make a lot of litters to impact their breed so having a ‘kennel setup’ where multiple litters are produced annually and all puppies are essentially sold to fill orders is pretty much a commercially motived individual and not necessarily a good breeder at all. A back yard breeder is someone that breeds simply to make puppies for a variety of reasons (so my kids can see puppies be born, so we can get another as perdy as she is, because s/he needs to be bred) - and they are doing it pretty much ignorantly - may have learned the right phrases but are actually ignorant of what they do and some of them end up being puppy mill wannabes or commercially motivated greeders. “Professional breeders” I am taking to mean essentially the same thing as commercial breeders - those that will simply mass produce puppies to make money and while some of them may be producing finishable dogs and can even be ‘big names’ in their particular breed, their motivation for breeding is what distinguishes them — personal gain, money or ego but not the concerned breeder that breeds the occassional litter with specific motivations in mind that ONLY relate to the breed and the future of the breed. Designations with certain names like hobby, or fancier or professional or whatever doesn’t really mean much as they are arbitrary and not wholey descriptive. A back yard greeder can be doing it as a ‘hobby’ but still are not doing it primarily for the breed itself. Basically there is responsible and irresponsible — responsible doesn’t breed for any other reason that to potentially improve the breed and its future and doesn’t expect to make anything off their dogs (i.e. don’t exploit them either monitarily or for ego gratification) - they also are KNOWLEDGEABLE - they know what the good and bad is in their breed - what to evaluate - how to deal with any issues and don’t breed for one litter but for future litters in mind and don’t breed just to make a litter to ‘fill orders’ - ‘everyone is waiting for Fido’s puppies’ isn’t a legitimate reason to produce a litter out of Fido. I know tons of breeders in my breed that produce many litters a year and out of 50 - 100 puppies produced they get some into show or performance homes and get them titled but that doesn’t mean they are breeding responsibly - what occurs to the other 40-90 or so pups? Are they altered prior to placement - are they just so much ‘excess’ to help cover costs - why would a knowledgeable breeder have to produce 5 or 10 litters a year to improve their breed? Selectively breeding responsibly and knowledgeably is a responsible breeder - the testing and showing and stuch is all nice and good but even those that do that may be irresponsibley breeding. If a breeder runs a ‘large scale kennel’ then I assume they are irresponsible and approaching puppy miller - i.e. mass production of puppies simply for gain.
June 15th, 2008 at 1:07 am
The main qualification to be considered a BYB is the reason for breeding. It doesn’t matter what the size of the ‘kennel’ is. If someone’s breeding only for money, and they do not do the testing, the screening, the showing or eventing- That is what makes them a backyard breeder. I think most good breeders would be considered hobbyists- I doubt it’s their one tried and true profession. So if someone is making a living off of breeding dogs, they are most likely doing it by cutting corners to save expenses- ie: backyard breeding.
June 15th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
To me what you are describing (small, careful selection, testing, showing, occasional litters) is what I consider a hobby breeder. Someone who is breeding to improve the breed, and doesn’t just breed to have puppies to sale.
I consider a back yard breeder someone who puts any 2 dogs of the same breed togather to breed to sale puppies. I also consider them the people who what the breed because they think there dog has something to offer (nice, cute ect) but there dog is not a good example of the breed, has not had testing and the person really doesn’t know anything about breeding.
What you described to as a “professional kennel” (large scale, makes there money from the dogs) is a puppy mill. Most good resonsible breeder make little if any money from breeding and quite a few loose money.
June 18th, 2008 at 6:07 am
I think hobby breeders are fine, as long as they actually operate the way you stated. Backyard breeders are a HUGE no–you cannot trust them, even if they’re nice, they do not screen their dogs (if they do, they’d be hobby breeders).
I don’t really like professional breeders, as I’ve seen photos of them and the dogs don’t seem happy in the kennels. Maybe that’s only a few, though, but the image I’ve seen of them doesn’t seen very pleasant for the dogs.
June 21st, 2008 at 7:15 am
Awwww … being a backyard greeder isn’t a BAD thing!! Backyard greeders produce pups that cost less than hobby breeders and professional breeders!! Backyard greeders don’t spend money on tests like OFA, CERF, heart & thyroid clearances so we can sell pups to people who can’t afford to pay more for a dog.
June 23rd, 2008 at 9:38 am
I’ve seen the links teener and Tom have posted, and I agree that they’re awesome.
If someone’s entire business is breeding and has a kennel setup but is reputable and ethical in their motivations, testing, and buyer screening, I’m fine with that.
What irks me is why the breeding is occurring. Hobby breeders are fine as long as they’re doing everything a “professional” would do.
Backyard breeders breed for fun, puppies, for the kids, or “for family pets.” If you ask me, dogs are family pets, there’s no need to breed for this specific purpose.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I would not feel that a small time breeder is not a back yard breeder as along as they were following proper breeding guidelines such as genetic testing, showing…ect. I would consider myself one of those breeders. I never had a kennel, per say, and the most dogs I had at one time was 4 -5 at a time (not including litters of puppies). My dogs have always been house dogs and I never owned a kennel. Over the 10 years that I bred cockers, ( this doesn’t include the years I showed and exhibited my dogs) I had 7 litters of puppies. I usually kept one or co-owned one from each litter. (if there was one good enough to keep and show). I would consider myself a reputable breeder because I did genetic testing, screened for brucelousis, selected my males for what they could do to improve my b*itch, screened my prospective buyers, registered pet quality puppies on limited registration, required a signed contract from the buyer to have the dog spayed or neutered, was a member of the national and local cocker club, followed a code of ethical breeding practices and always was available to educate people on my breed as well as participate in rescue work and fostering unwanted cockers.